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When is it Okay to be Wrong? (w/ Tenelle Porter) | How to Be a Better Human, a TED Podcast

Welcome! 😊 This episode of How to Be a Better Human is all about a topic that's both humbling and empowering: intellectual humility. Host Chris Duffy chats with Dr. Tenelle Porter, a psychology professor and researcher, to explore what it means to admit we might be wrong, why it matters, and how we can all get better at it. Let's walk through the conversation step by step, highlighting the best quotes and key lessons along the way!

1. Introduction: Why Talk About Humility?

Chris Duffy opens with a playful confession:

"Anyone who knows me knows that humility is not my strong suit. I have a big head—both literally and metaphorically."

He jokes about being a comedian and podcast host, admitting:

"I think strangers should be silent and listen to me talk while I'm on stage."

Chris sets the stage for why he needs this conversation, and why we all might benefit from it.

2. Meet Dr. Tenelle Porter: The Humility Expert

Dr. Porter introduces herself as an assistant professor at Rowan University, specializing in intellectual humility. Chris asks her to define it, and she explains:

"Intellectual humility means understanding what you don't know and recognizing that you might be wrong."

She emphasizes that everyone feels right, but:

"That feeling of being right is a subjective experience and it doesn't always match reality."

Key Point:

"Our knowledge is partial. Nobody knows everything there is to know, and therefore we sometimes get things wrong."

3. From Hubris to Humility: Real-Life Example

Chris asks for a concrete example. Dr. Porter shares a relatable story:

"A woman came on the plane and said, 'You're in my seat.' I said, 'No, I'm not, I'm in 34A.' Then the woman in the middle seat said, 'Well, I'm in 33B.' It was just very clear that oh, I'm in the wrong seat. I was totally wrong, I'm so sorry."

She points out:

"Every single person has had that experience of being totally wrong about something, because we're humans and that's part of what it is to be human."

4. Why Intellectual Humility Matters Now

Chris notes that humility feels more urgent today. Dr. Porter agrees:

"Holding space for the possibility that we might be wrong is not a new idea... What's new now is that we're starting to study it scientifically."

She explains that intellectual humility is relevant in many areas of life, from personal relationships to society at large.

5. How Do You Study Intellectual Humility?

Dr. Porter describes her research methods, including a study with high school students about cell phone bans:

"Instead of asking them, 'How humble do you think you are about this issue?' we're going to ask them to actually engage with perspectives that don't agree with them."

They measure humility by seeing how willing students are to read reasons from someone who disagrees.

6. Humility Across the Lifespan

Chris wonders if humility changes as we age. Dr. Porter shares:

"If you ask a four-year-old how much they know about trucks or why frogs look the way they do, a four-year-old is going to say, 'I know everything about that.'"

But as kids grow:

"They start to get better at calibrating how much they know and how much they don't know."

She adds:

"Teenagers aren't any more narcissistic than anybody else. They're actually a little bit better than super young kids at knowing what they know and what they don't know."

And with age:

"Sometimes as people get older, they're more intellectually humble. With experience, you really come to just appreciate this fact of being a human being, which is that we're all fallible."

7. What's the Opposite of Intellectual Humility?

Dr. Porter defines it as:

"Intellectual rigidity—that's like extreme certainty."

But she also explores the balance between confidence and humility:

"You even have to have a certain amount of confidence to be able to show intellectual humility. It's like, I'm so confident that I'm willing to be vulnerable in this way."

Chris adds:

"It's so much more pleasant to be with someone who can just say, 'I actually don't know.'"

8. Humility Helps Relationships

Dr. Porter shares a fun example from dating:

"If someone says, 'No, absolutely not, I do not believe in ghosts and there's no information that you could ever provide to me to show me that ghosts are real,' they're really rigid. But if they're like, 'I don't actually believe in ghosts right now, but maybe you could show me something to convince me,' that's a marker of intellectual humility."

She notes:

"Somewhere in the middle is this more flexible, intellectually humble state."

9. Cultural Pressures and Online Rigidity

Chris observes:

"It feels to me like we are in a cultural moment where there's very little cultural capital in having flexibility and there's quite a lot of cultural pressure to be rigid in your beliefs."

Dr. Porter agrees, especially about online spaces, and suggests:

"We need big cultural shifts or big contexts that can support intellectual humility for it to really thrive."

10. How to Foster Intellectual Humility (as a Teacher or Leader)

Dr. Porter says:

"I try to model intellectual humility as a teacher. It really sets the tone for students and it really licenses them to be able to express that uncertainty or just take a risk to admit, 'Oh, I don't know what that means.'"

She emphasizes the power of modeling humility, especially for those in positions of influence.

11. Teenagers and Humility: Surprising Findings

Dr. Porter studied teens and found:

"Intellectually humbler teenagers were doing better in school. They were learning more, they were more persistent. If they got a bad test grade, they were like, 'Okay, I'm not giving up, I'm going to figure out what's going on and try harder next time.'"

"They were more receptive to feedback and more likely to incorporate that feedback in a revision going forward. All this culminates in earning higher grades."

Key Point:

"The intellectually humbler teenagers were learning more."

12. Surprising Insights: Too Much Humility?

Dr. Porter notes:

"If you're really, really turned way up in terms of how aware you are of the stuff that you don't know, that can actually make you a lot less willing to show that to other people."

She warns against "analysis paralysis":

"At one end of the extreme, the opposite is something like rigidity—too much certainty. But there's another extreme, which is like too much obsessing over what you don't know and getting kind of mired down with all of the limitations."

Balance is key!

13. Practicing Humility: Exposure and Growth

Chris relates this to stand-up comedy:

"When you first perform and you get up there and you think you're going to say something funny and you say it and no one laughs, that first time is excruciating. And now if I tell a joke and it does not get any reaction from the audience, that is actually really just helpful information for me."

Dr. Porter agrees:

"It is one of these things that we can develop through practice."

She insists:

"Training this is really possible and worthwhile, and it's really exciting to push forward and progress and learn something new."

14. How to Build Intellectual Humility in Yourself

Dr. Porter offers practical tips:

Get Perspective:

"If you find yourself in a conflict and you see things differently than somebody else, just remove yourself from the situation and imagine looking back on this situation from 20 years in the future or imagine that you are a fly on the wall watching this play out."
Remind Yourself of the Benefits:

"There's a lot in our culture that says intellectual humility is not good, it makes you look weak, it's not going to help you. But there's also a lot in our culture that says, 'No, this is a good way to be, this is a really good way to connect with other people, this is a good way to learn something new, this is an honest way to be because we are humans and no one is infallible.'"
Reflect on Your Values:

"Take a moment, remove yourself, and just reflect on your values—what are some values that are really important to you? It kind of anchors the self so that you're feeling in a way more secure to go back into that interaction and be able to listen to what the other person has to say without feeling really threatened and needing to protect and defend yourself."
Adopt a Growth Mindset:

"Put yourself into a kind of growth mindset. This is the idea that you can grow in understanding, the other person can also change and grow in understanding."

15. Encouraging Humility in Kids and Others

Dr. Porter says:

"Find ways to model it. Say you're asked a question and you're not sure, try to model intellectual humility: 'I'm not sure, maybe we can try to look it up together.'"

"Celebrating intellectual humility—it's really hard for a kid to be vulnerable in certain settings and just be like, 'I was wrong, I got that wrong, I don't understand, I don't know.' So when that happens, that's a good thing to celebrate: 'Wow, I'm really proud of you for doing that.'"

16. Gender and Humility

Chris brings up gender roles:

"A lot of the ideas of what it means to be a man have to do with this decisiveness and certainty and not backing down."

Dr. Porter observes:

"On that kind of survey item, the boys are like, 'I don't want to show weakness,' and admitting you don't know something, they think it as a sign of weakness."

But:

"When the teacher has modeled that humility first, girls become a lot more comfortable voicing their own questions in that setting, and that gap between boys and girls and how comfortable they are voicing their question closes."

17. Societal Impact: What If We All Practiced Humility?

Dr. Porter imagines:

"We would learn more because we would begin to stop holding so tightly to what we think is true. So we might question and push the boundaries further, which would allow us to progress."

She adds:

"Right now we're going through a kind of trauma in the country. It's hard to even have a conversation with somebody who disagrees with you. If we embrace intellectual humility, we find it's easier to get along and love each other."

18. Final Thoughts

Chris thanks Dr. Porter:

"Such a pleasure talking to you."

Dr. Porter replies:

"Thank you so much, I'm really glad to have been here."

Key Takeaways & Quotes

Intellectual humility is about recognizing the limits of your knowledge and being open to the possibility that you might be wrong.
"Our knowledge is partial. Nobody knows everything there is to know."
Modeling humility—especially for teachers, parents, and leaders—creates safer spaces for others to be honest and learn.
"The intellectually humbler teenagers were learning more."
Balance is crucial: Too much certainty is rigid, but too much doubt can lead to "analysis paralysis."
"It's great to learn that I'm wrong. This is learning. This is so exciting."
Practice makes progress: Humility is a muscle you can strengthen.
"If we embrace intellectual humility, we find it's easier to get along and love each other."