Bp. Sanborn: Judaism
This episode of "Root of the Rot" features Bishop Donald Sanborn discussing the Jewish nation and religion from a traditional Catholic perspective — covering Judaism's origins as a messianic religion, its transformation after rejecting Christ, Jewish opposition to Christianity through the centuries, and the proper Catholic attitude toward Jews. The conversation spans from Old Testament times through the French Revolution to the modern era, using quotes from Jewish writers themselves to frame the discussion.
1. Introduction: A Sensitive but Necessary Topic
Host Stephen Heiner opens the episode by acknowledging that discussing Jews and Judaism is often perceived as a sensitive or even dangerous topic in the modern world. He notes the constant fear of being labeled anti-Semitic, mentioning organizations like the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) and the Southern Poverty Law Center. But he asks Bishop Sanborn directly — is this actually a difficult topic?
Bishop Sanborn responds with calm confidence:
"There are some very objective facts that need to be looked at. The reasoning is very clear. The Catholic Church never hated Jews or persecuted Jews."
He clarifies that what the Church did do historically was take measures to limit Jewish influence when it came to opposing Catholic principles in society. But importantly, the Church always protected Jews from physical persecution — defending them when mobs blamed them for things like poisoning wells during plagues.
"It actually always protected the Jews from physical persecution and blame."
2. What Judaism Actually Is: A Religion of Expectation
Heiner asks for a proper definition of Judaism, noting that Catholics sometimes think they understand it because Catholicism is rooted in the Old Testament. Bishop Sanborn begins by clarifying an important term: "perfidy" (Latin: perfidia).
"The Latin word is perfidia, which comes off badly in English as almost like treachery. That's not what the Catholic Church means by it. It means simply an infidelity, an unfaithfulness to something they ought to be faithful to."
He explains that Judaism is fundamentally different from a Christian heresy. God called Abraham from Ur of the Chaldees specifically to prepare a people to receive the coming Messiah. The rest of humanity had been so corrupted by original sin that a special nation had to be set apart over many centuries.
What makes Judaism unique among world religions is its inherent expectation:
"It is by its very nature a religion that looks forward to a Messiah. It is like a bud that must bloom, or a caterpillar that must turn into a butterfly. It is in expectation of something."
Unlike Islam or other religions that simply exist as established belief systems, Judaism was always pointing toward a fulfillment. When the Messiah (Christ) came, most Jews rejected Him and continued waiting for another. At that point, what had been the true religion became a false one — not a heresy in the Christian sense, but an infidelity to their original vocation.
3. Temporal Messianism: Why They Rejected Christ
Heiner brings up a crucial question: what kind of Messiah were the Jews actually expecting? Bishop Sanborn explains that first-century BC Jewish literature (outside of Scripture) reveals that the prevailing expectation was of a political and military leader — someone who would restore the glory of Solomon, make Judaism the dominant force in the world, and throw off the Roman yoke.
"They were expecting someone that would bring Judaism to a very prominent place in the world, that would restore the greatness of Solomon and go far beyond Solomon, where they would become the leaders of the world."
This is why the Gospels record crowds trying to make Jesus king by force — they wanted a temporal ruler. When Jesus spoke of a spiritual kingdom "not of this world," most were deeply disappointed.
"That was what we call temporal messianism, and that was the principal reason why they rejected Christ as the Messiah, because he fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophecies. He was clearly the Messiah, but they did not want that kind of Messiah."
Heiner notes this tendency ran deep — all the way back to when the Israelites demanded a king like the other nations, and the prophet Samuel lamented their request for King Saul. Bishop Sanborn agrees this was a recurring theme, though he cautions against overgeneralizing:
"Not all. You make generalizations, but on the whole, the Jews did reject Christ when he came. There were some very great exceptions to that, but on the whole, they did."
When asked if this is the seed of modern Zionism, Sanborn draws a distinction. Zionism is a 19th-century political movement not embraced by many Jews (especially Orthodox and Hasidic Jews), and it wasn't even originally focused on Palestine — Madagascar was once considered. The deeper and more ancient issue is temporal messianism itself. He notes that many modern Jews no longer even believe in a personal Messiah, but rather in a "messianic era" where Judaism achieves world prominence.
4. Early Jewish Opposition to Christianity
The conversation shifts to the early centuries of Christianity. Heiner reads a quote from St. Simeon bar Sabbae (died 341 AD):
"The Jews are the perpetual enemies of the Church who can be always found in stormy times, constant in their insatiable hatred, and not hesitating to make any calumnious accusation."
Bishop Sanborn contextualizes this by explaining that in the early Church, Jews allied themselves with the pagans against Christians. This isn't a conspiracy theory — it's well-documented in historical writings. Both groups had a common interest: destroying Christianity.
"The Jews considered Christianity to be a heresy, to be a sect that needed to be wiped out. And so they had a common ground with the pagans in wanting to undo Christianity."
Heiner also cites Emperor Theodosius, who banned Jews from certain public offices:
"Let them not be prison guards, lest the Christians, as is usually the case, suffer another form of prison when they are sometimes cajoled by the hatred of their guards."
The Future Conversion of the Jews
Bishop Sanborn introduces a fascinating and hopeful note, citing Cardinal Billot from the 1920s, who said that the current age of apostasy will end with the conversion of the Jews as foretold by St. Paul in Romans chapter 11.
"When the Jews do in fact, as a people in general, convert to Christianity, they will Christianize the world. They will be as tenacious and vivacious about their conversion to Christianity as they have been in their opposition to Christianity."
He emphasizes that Jewish converts make exceptionally devoted Catholics:
"No one makes a better convert to Catholicism than a Jew. When they embrace Catholicism, they embrace it totally. They are not a people of half measures."
5. The Talmud and Anti-Christian Sentiment
Heiner raises the topic of the Talmud — the rabbinic commentary on the Torah that became central to Judaism after the destruction of the Temple. There are two versions: the Jerusalem Talmud (3rd–4th century) and the Babylonian Talmud (5th–6th century).
Bishop Sanborn explains that the Talmud covers a vast range of topics, but it contains passages that are deeply hostile toward Christians and Christianity. He reads several examples directly:
"If a gentile, either a shepherd or someone who raises small farm animals, should fall into a well, you leave him there, but you do not throw him in. You also leave the minim [Christians] in there, the apostates and the informers, but also you throw them in."
"The money of the Christians has been given to the Jews, and thus it is permitted to steal from them or to deceive them."
"It is forbidden to give back to a Christian an object which he has lost."
The Talmud also contains deeply offensive characterizations of Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary — calling Christ illegitimate, a fool, a seducer, and saying Mary was a prostitute. The Book of Zohar contains even more extreme language.
A critical point Sanborn makes is that modern Jews are more influenced by the Talmud than by the Torah itself:
"Most modern Jews go more by the Talmud than by the Torah. The Talmud has a much greater influence upon the theology of modern Jews than the Torah does. As a matter of fact, many of them don't even know what the Torah says."
6. After Emancipation: Revolution, Socialism, and the New World Order
After the French Revolution of 1789, Jews gradually gained emancipation across Europe. Bishop Sanborn makes a remarkably empathetic point about why Jews gravitated toward revolutionary and liberal movements:
"If I lived in Israel, my natural inclination would be to overthrow established Judaism and replace it with Christianity. I would not be happy with an established false religion."
He draws a direct parallel — just as a Catholic would feel uncomfortable in a society with an established Protestant or Jewish state religion, Jews were naturally uncomfortable under established Christianity. The socialist and liberal movements of the 19th century promised a secularized society where no religion would be officially favored, which was in Jewish interests.
Key Jewish Figures in Revolutionary Movements
Sanborn and Heiner discuss several prominent Jewish figures:
- Bernard Lazare — A Jewish writer who authored L'Antisémitisme in the 1890s, openly admitting Jewish involvement in revolutions, secret societies, and opposition to Christianity. Sanborn emphasizes this isn't from a "Catholic Jew-hater" but rather:
"This is straight from the horse's mouth."
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Heinrich Heine — A Jewish socialist and communist deeply allied with revolutionary ideas.
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Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Ferdinand Lassalle, Liebknecht — all Jewish figures prominently involved in socialist and communist movements.
Practical Consequences of Exclusion
Bishop Sanborn provides important context for why Jews ended up in certain professions. In Christian Europe, they were excluded from many occupations — they couldn't teach in universities, hold certain offices, or even live in certain cities (Jews couldn't live in Vienna until 1848). Banking was one of the few areas open to them, partly because they could charge interest while Christians generally couldn't under canon law.
The Hollywood film industry provides a striking example:
"Hollywood was established as a movie-making place because the Christian establishment in New York didn't want the Jews involved in making movies in the early part of the 20th century. So they all went out to California and established an almost entirely Jewish movie-making business, mostly Russian Jews."
7. Control of Media, Entertainment, and Press
Bishop Sanborn argues that Jews understood early on the power of media in a democratic society:
- Joseph Pulitzer (of the Pulitzer Prize) was Jewish and ran the New York Herald in the 1880s
- Adolph Ochs, founder of the modern New York Times, was Jewish
"They saw the power of the press in a democratic society. They understood that right away. They are astute businessmen, and they also knew that the press would have a tremendous power to influence politics."
He gives specific examples of how media was used to shape public opinion:
- Roosevelt asked Hollywood to make movies portraying Stalin favorably during WWII to counter public criticism of the US-Soviet alliance
- WWII movies made after the war showed integrated military units (black and white soldiers together), even though the armed forces weren't actually integrated until the Korean War — this was deliberate cultural engineering to promote the civil rights agenda
"Most people look at the television and decide — they're told what to think by newscasters. They're very deeply influenced, most people, by what the television tells them to think, or what television shows them, or what television doesn't show them."
He observes that Jewish identification with the black civil rights movement came from a sense of shared oppression, and their dominance in entertainment gave them the power to advance this cause culturally.
8. The Unique American Experience
Heiner and Sanborn have a particularly interesting exchange about growing up in New York City in the early 1960s. Sanborn describes his block as a typical New York mix — "Irish and Italians and Jews" — where neighborhood kids played ball together and had open discussions about religion.
He shares a remarkable anecdote. When he was about 12 or 13, around 1962–63, a Jewish friend named David Levy told him on the bus:
"The future of Christianity is ecumenism. It's all going to go together."
Young Sanborn protested: "No, no, that's not possible." His friend insisted:
"Yes, you'll see. It's all going to come together."
Sanborn reflects with amazement that this prediction came true — and wonders how a 12-year-old Jewish boy knew this. Was it discussed in the synagogue?
He explains why America was uniquely comfortable for Jews compared to Europe: the United States never had an established Catholic society. The secular framework already existed from the American Revolution, so Jews didn't need to overthrow anything — they simply had to participate in a system that already favored religious neutrality.
"That's I think one of the reasons why they were so attracted to this country — that they did not have to work against an established Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox society."
9. Race vs. Religion: The Core Distinction
Heiner raises a question many Catholics struggle with: if all these facts are true, isn't this just anti-Semitism? Bishop Sanborn draws a critical distinction between race and religion:
"When you say the word Jew, you're talking about both race and religion. The Church has absolutely no opposition to them as a people. Our Lord was a Jew. Our Lady was a Jew. St. Joseph was a Jew. The apostles were Jews. How could you be opposed to them on the question of race?"
The opposition is entirely theological — specifically, the rejection of Christ as the Messiah. He makes a subtle but important point: a Jew converting to Catholicism would actually find less to object to than a Protestant converting, because Jews already understand authoritative religion — priesthood, prophets, established religious authority.
"They're not Bible thumpers. They understand a priesthood and an established authority of religion. So they're not going to object to a pope or to the authority of the Church. They're objecting to a single thing, and that is the messianic dignity of our Lord Jesus Christ."
10. The Dilemma of Deicide
The conversation reaches its theological crescendo with the topic of deicide — the killing of God. This became publicly controversial with Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ, where the line "His blood be on us and on our children" was spoken in Aramaic but deliberately left out of the subtitles.
Bishop Sanborn explains the inescapable logical dilemma facing Judaism:
"If Christ is a false Messiah, then Judaism is true and they were right to put him to death."
The Jews told Pilate they had a law — anyone who makes himself equal to God must die. Under Mosaic law, they were technically correct if Jesus was indeed a false claimant.
"If he was the true Messiah, and they put him to death, then the ones in the first century were deicides — they put God to death."
Modern Jews who continue to affirm that Jesus was a false Messiah cannot escape solidarity with their ancestors' decision, because they must logically agree with it:
"They cannot escape from a connection to their ancestors who crucified Christ if they continue to say that he was a false Messiah. They cannot escape that connection because they must agree with it. They must say, 'Yes, they were right to put him to death.' That's their problem."
He notes this was the argument that actually moved Pilate — not the political accusations, but the theological claim:
"When they transferred it to a theological argument and said, 'We have a law. He made himself equal to God and he must die' — that's when Pilate was moved."
11. The Catholic Attitude: Justice, Charity, and Hope for Conversion
The episode concludes with practical guidance. Heiner asks if Bishop Sanborn's own example as a 12-year-old — being friendly, playing ball, discussing religion honestly — is the model Catholics should follow.
Sanborn quotes St. Paul: we should be at peace with all men to the extent possible. He adds important nuances:
- The Church traditionally says Catholics should not actively seek out friendships with non-Catholics (this applies to all non-Catholics, not just Jews), as it can be an occasion of sin
- But in a mixed society, relationships naturally occur — the kid down the block, business colleagues — and these are fine as long as they don't threaten your faith
- There should be no compromise on Catholic teaching — his childhood conversations with Jewish friends were emphatically not ecumenical
"We were not ecumenical at all. He would defend his Judaism and I would of course defend Catholicism."
Most importantly, Sanborn rejects hatred as both un-Catholic and counterproductive:
"I was never a Jew hater. I've known many Jews in my life. I've dealt with many in New York City... I have never had reason to hate Jews."
"I don't think that it helps Catholicism in the conversion of the Jews to carry on like a bitter hatred of them. You're not going to convert anybody by constantly battering them. By treating them decently, I think you might draw them."
He acknowledges this may not be popular with some listeners, but stands firm:
"I think that may not be popular with a lot of people, but that's what I think."
Final Thoughts
This episode presents a comprehensive traditional Catholic framework for understanding Judaism — not as an exercise in hatred, but as a careful theological and historical analysis. The key takeaways are:
- Judaism was a legitimate religion of expectation that became a false religion when it rejected its own fulfillment in Christ
- Jewish opposition to Christianity is well-documented, including by Jewish writers themselves, and has manifested across centuries in alliance with revolutionary, socialist, and secularist movements
- The Church always protected Jews from physical violence while restricting their societal influence in Christian states
- The proper Catholic attitude is one of justice, charity, honest theological engagement, and hope for their eventual conversion — never hatred
- The future conversion of the Jews, foretold by St. Paul, remains one of the great hopes of Catholic eschatology, promising that the same tenacity Jews have shown in opposing Christianity will one day be channeled into spreading it
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